Transcript 0:00 [guitar strumming] And so I came through Muscle Shoals for the first time on a tour in 2022 when I was singing with another artist. 0:12 And of course, I knew all about it, being just, like, a music nerd, and I've seen the documentary, and, you know, I, I love knowing who played on what, and a lot of this music from the '60s and '70s really influenced me as a writer and as a vocalist. 0:25 And so when I came here, first thing I did was I went to FAME to take a tour. 0:29 I had such a emotional reaction walking into that A room where Aretha Fran- Franklin recorded her first big hit record, and, Etta James stood right there, and Wilson Pickett stood right there, and same Wurlitzer, same piano. 0:41 There's the reverb chamber that we've all, all heard her voice reverberating through for generations. And I, I was, like, so overcome, I couldn't even really enjoy it. 0:49 I was in the corner getting emotional and, and almost feeling anxious, like, "I have to come here and make a record here." 0:57 [upbeat country music] I'm Jason English, and this is Curious Goldfish, a music podcast about more than music. I can't sing. I don't play an instrument or write songs. 1:11 But I've always been curious about the people who can, the ones honest enough to put what they're feeling and dealing with into three minutes and then hand it to a stranger. So those are the people I sit down with. 1:23 We get underneath the music releases by digging into the doubt, the dark forests, the money, and the reason that they haven't quit. Welcome to Curious Goldfish. Welcome back. My guest today is Chrissy Poland. 1:38 She's a New York soul singer with a big voice who chased a sound all the way to a small town in North Alabama, 1:45 and she has a new album out called Forever Muscle Shoals, recorded in the same way that the songs were originally made. 1:52 Instead of chasing labels, Chrissy's focused on her unique sound and personality, and you can hear it the moment her new album starts. 2:00 We get into where the Muscle Shoals sound comes from, why she couldn't shake it, and what she refuses to fake anymore. 2:07 It's a good conversation with someone whose respect for the past rivals only her enthusiasm for her future. So now from New York City, but for all intents and purposes today, from Muscle Shoals, Alabama, 2:21 here's Chrissy Poland. Let's dive in. Chrissy, I really appreciate your time. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me on. I'm a fan of your podcast. [laughs] Well, that means everything. I, uh- Yeah... 2:33 appreciate that. Thank you. Um, so it's, uh, kinda mid-August here in, uh, 2026, and we are days away from an album release that you are, uh-- you're gonna do, so congrats on that. It's-- the album's- Thank you... 2:49 called Forever Muscle Shoals. Yeah. Uh, and I think you're calling in to the show from Muscle Shoals. Is that right? I am. 2:56 I am here in the, in the great neighborhood, the one they call the hit recording capital of the world. Awesome. All right. Yeah. Well, but you don't live anywhere near Muscle Shoals, so- No... what are you doing now? 3:07 You mean, you're-- are you taking pictures? Are you-- You know, what are you doing fi- finalizing the album? What's going on? Yeah, so yeah. 3:15 It's-- With the record coming out so soon, I wanted to come down one more time as sort of like a final visit of this chapter before the record is released. 3:24 Um, stop by some of the studios, um, like FAME and Muscle Shoals Sound, where I made the record, bring them some copies, um, do some photos. 3:32 I'm doing a little, uh, video content capture outside some of the studios, um, visiting with some of the folks that made the record with me, 3:42 having some visits with some of the original Swampers like Spooner Oldham and David Hood, who are, like, the legends that still live here. 3:50 So, you know, they played on the original songs of some of the, the pieces that I did on the record, so going out to lunch with those guys tomorrow and, um, just kind of being here and, and, and for me, it's a little bit kind of putting a period at the end of this very long sentence that was a dream for many years and then, um, took shape over a long period of time with a lot of different people and sort of kind of finalizing that part of it before we go into the next phase. 4:18 Sounds amazing. Geographically, you don't really have a connection to Muscle Shoals, 'cause you live, like, in the Northeast, right? I do. I'm originally from Massachusetts. 4:27 Um, m- my whole career was pre- predominantly based in New York City. I moved there when I was 20 years old, um, and came up there in the music scene and then from there started touring all over the world. 4:40 Um, but I've always been very drawn to soul music 4:44 and not so much genre-specific, but just, um, stuff that's very much rooted in real and raw and organic and that feeling that you get when you know you're listening to musicians put something out that's from their guts, and that can be across all styles. 5:00 That's in folk, pop, reggae. It doesn't really matter. Um, and so I came through Muscle Shoals for the first time on a tour in 2022 when I was singing with another artist. 5:13 And of course, I knew all about it, being just, like, a music nerd, and I've seen the documentary, and, you know, I, I love knowing who played on what and this music. 5:22 A lot of this music from the '60s and '70s really influenced me as a writer and as a vocalist. 5:27 And so when I came here, first thing I did was I went to FAME to take a tour of the studio, and I, like-- I had such a emotional reaction walking into that A room where Aretha Fran- Franklin recorded her first big hit record, and, Etta James stood right there, and Wilson Pickett stood right there, and same Wurlitzer, same piano. 5:45 There's the reverb chamber that we've all, all heard her voice reverberating through for generations. And I, I was, like, so overcome, I couldn't even really enjoy it. I was, like, in the corner, like, 5:56 getting emotional and, and almost feeling anxious, like, "I ha- I have to, I have to come here and make a record here." And that was in 2022. 6:07 And the process actually started in 2024, 'cause I had a friend down here who has a small studio here, and I came down and visited him, met a bunch of folks. 6:15 And through a billion steps, one leading to the next, it happened, and we created it, and here we are. [laughs] Man, sounds amazing. All right. Well, thanks for taking us through that. Yeah. 6:25 So, uh, so Forever Muscle Shoals, i- it's a tribute to the sound of, uh, the area there, uh, near the Tennessee River in, uh, north Alabama. I mean, there's a ton of material to choose from. Mm-hmm. Uh, and they're... 6:39 again, they're all covers, but you've, you've kinda put your own spin on it, and you've got this- Mm-hmm... incredible, uh, collection of, like, collaborators and musicians that, that join you. 6:48 But the, the material that obviously was created there, it's, it's massive. What was the process to actually select the ones that ended up on the album? Yeah, so to select the ones I wanted to do 7:01 on this recording, I knew there were particular ones that have just influenced me from w- all the way back, particular Aretha Franklin songs, particular Etta James songs, particular Wilson Pickett songs. 7:12 So I, I already knew some of those. I had to do some of those. Um, and I've been performing them live in my own shows for years. Then I dug further. 7:22 I remember when I saw the Muscle Shoals documentary, I got hip to artists that I wasn't that familiar with. 7:27 That's when I learned about Candi Staton, and I learned about the gospel soul record that Bob Dylan made down here. 7:32 Of course, all the Allman Brothers stuff that was done down here, The Rolling Stones recording "Wild Horses" down here, and how that came to be. Um, so I started digging on my own a little further. 7:42 Well, let me go through and listen to Candi's catalog. You know, let me go really listen to this Bob Dylan record. I've never really listened to that album. 7:49 And that's w- that was so much fun, that part of the creative process, sort of little investigative listening. And I really... the thing, the, the songs that struck me the most as 8:03 songs that, um, just made my, you know, soul musician tuning fork vibrate hard were the ones that I said, "I have to, I have to do this." And that's how I picked them. It was really all feel. 8:17 You know, the Candi Staton tune, I'd never heard that tune, and "That's the Best Thing You Ever Had," it's the second song on the record, and man, I think that is the mo- one of the most killing soul tunes I've ever heard, and it's such a deep cut. 8:29 And the Dylan song is this beautiful... I mean, of c- b- it's Bob Dylan, so you expect the writing to be incredible, but I had never heard this piece by him. And when I just read the lyrical content, I was so moved. Um, 8:42 and when I just kinda did my own piano playing on it and brought the lyrics in with a little B3 around it, it took on its own shape. 8:48 So that's sort of how I came to pick the songs that I wasn't familiar with, and it was super fun. I really loved that part of it. Really cool. All right. Yeah. 8:57 Well, so I, uh, I've interviewed a few people that are from Muscle Shoals, and then f- a few people that have recorded in Muscle Shoals. Yeah. So I apologize. 9:05 Not that a lot of people, like, listen to this all the time, but, uh, what I always find fascinating is... 'Cause I, I was... 9:11 I sat in on a recording session over there a couple years ago, which was incredible, at one of the studios. Mm-hmm. But the recurring sort of theme that I ke- I kept hearing is, like, this energy. Mm-hmm. 9:23 Um, and, you know, again, nothing against Muscle Shoals, but it, it's not, you know, it's few, it's, it's more than a few traffic lights- Yeah... but there's not a whole lot going on there, right? Right. Yeah. 9:35 But you do have the river- Mm-hmm... and people keep talking about this weird energy. Mm-hmm. Um, again, not to get too mystical here, but 9:44 is that what you felt when you first arrived in Muscle Shoals, and then within the studio, and then while you were performing? You know, what, what energy were you feeling? Oh, yeah. 9:55 All of that, and listen, we can get as mystical as you wanna go, 'cause that is, like, that is the star I fell from. So [laughs] that's, you're speaking my language. 10:03 And, you know, there's, there's history to the magic of this place, and the indigenous people settled here. 10:09 They said they felt that the river was singing in this bend in the Tennessee River that happens to be right here. 10:14 So there's this tie to music and vibration that goes all the way back to the original people who settled on this land. 10:21 And then you fast-forward to Rick Hall throwing up a studio in the middle of nowhere and saying, "I'm gonna make the greatest records of all time here." And that's exactly what happened. 10:32 And the fact that these guys that all lived here, that w- ended up being called, history calls them the Swampers, these musicians, local guys, predominantly white, how, how are they all this ridiculous at what they do? 10:48 It's like, is it in the water? Is there some kind of weird vibrational force at this corner of the globe? Because there's so much history of incredible music and, um, spiritual vibration stuff from this exact area. 11:03 So that's definitely going on. And, like, Aretha was recording in New York two, three records, and she's just... But they were not making headway. She was not getting through and breaking. 11:14 She comes down here, and she cuts I Never Loved a Man the Way That I Loved You, that whole album. She's a global star. There, there it is. And it, it was like that for so many of the artists ca- And then it caught on. 11:25 So, like, that's when, like, you know, Bob Seger was like, "I wanna go make a record there." Cher, "I gotta go ma- I wanna make, I want that sound." The Rolling Stones, "I wanna get that sound." Bob Dylan. 11:34 You know, they all were, like, coming here to latch into that vibration and that sound. So it's really about the, the something about the region that produced this sound, and I, that's why I say this is across genres. 11:46 You know, this is... We can point to rock and roll and roots and soul and folk, gospel, reggae. 11:53 All of it you'll find here somewhere, because people gravitated for the vibe, and that's what, that's what you get on those records. It's, like, undeniable, the vibe, you know? 12:03 And so for me, like, when I took that, when I went back into Fame on day one of recording- 12:08 And remember, like, when I stepped in that room to take the tour, and I'm crying in the corner going, "I have to come here and make a record." 12:14 And I walk in there that day, and they, there's the picture of Aretha, and there's a picture of Etta, and there's her piano, and, and we're tracking. That, that was so heavy. That was so profound. 12:26 And, you know, we set up and we recorded. I, I was, I was very adamant about, "You guys, I wanna record this like they did it." So we play live, live vocals. We play, we capture the takes the way that they did it. 12:38 And you can hear that energy in the tracks. That's us playing live, and that's me singing live. 12:44 And there were a couple moments where we finished one, when I knew, like, when I knew I had it because it came from that place in my heart, in my guts, in my soul, and I had to, like, walk out of the room 'cause I was getting so choked up and emotional about all of it. 12:58 Um, it's just a grand circle to, to be a part of. And I, and I have been so influenced by that music, and have shared the stage with some of the greatest people that ever recorded in Muscle Shoals. 13:10 So getting to kind of f- find myself in that world for a moment, highlighting this music, like, a total gift. 13:17 So for those that may not be familiar with you, what are some of the names that you've performed with, that have- Yeah. 13:23 So, um, for years, I mean, gosh, 15 years, I toured around the world and I sang with Sam M- uh, Sam Moore, who was one half of the group Sam & Dave. So of course everybody knows Soul Man and Hold On, I'm Comin'. 13:36 Primarily a Stax artist, so primarily in Memphis. 13:39 But again, sometimes those Memphis artists will come down here, and Stax would partner with Recall, the guys at Fame, or The Swampers, and we need to cut a couple of tracks down there, uh, or we wanna change a location. 13:51 Sam was one of those artists. Sam & Dave came down and cut down in the Shoals. 13:55 And so for me, having spent so much time with Sam, and he was like family to me, and had stood on the stage with him all over the world singing with him and absorbing... 14:04 What came out of him was, it was literally like standing on stage with, with the v- vibrational energy of whatever you think God is in the universe, when Sam would stand on stage and he would sing. 14:16 And I would stand one foot from him and we would sing duets, and that, that, that I got to absorb that and share that with him, and honor him on this record by doing one of their songs. And he passed away 14:32 right when we started recording this project. We were gonna have him be on the record with us. Mm. And he passed away. I had talked to him a couple of weeks before, and it was so heartbreaking. 14:41 But I was just listening to the, this, the Hold On, I'm Comin' version that we did the other day and thinking, like, "I think he would dig this." I think I can hear his voice telling me he thinks it's all right. 14:50 [laughs] So- That's great... Sam was one of 'em. Ronnie Wood from The Rolling Stones, and that was with Sam. He came up and, and jammed with us. Uh, I sung Stay With Me, the Faces tune, with Ronnie. 15:02 Um, I've seen Ronnie now and then, um, at different events and different shows and stuff, and so getting to do this version of Wild Horses with James Otto was like a dream. 15:11 And we, we cut it right where they did at Muscle Shoals Sound. Their picture's right on the wall behind us. So that was incredible. Um, Mavis Staples, I've sung on stage with Mavis two or three times. And man, she's 15:24 a global treasure. And again, the Staple Singers, primarily Stax artists, but they came down to Muscle Shoals and cut songs. 15:30 And so we did Respect Yourself, and that one features Ryan Shaw, who's one of my favorite s- current-day soul singers of all time. So you mentioned the word vibe a few, a few minutes ago, multiple times. Mm-hmm. 15:40 So speaking of Muscle Shoals, Muscle Shoals vibes, uh, I did talk to Craig Alvin a few months ago. Um- Yes, our engineer. The engineer. And he, uh, he's 15:52 heavily involved with a different studio than Fame, but, you know, I think, uh, those guys kinda float around, I guess. Yeah. How'd you get in, uh, in front of Craig? 15:58 And I think, just a comment about Craig, I mean, you talk about, like, straight shooter, like, no BS. After doing something for so long- Mm... 16:09 and having so much, uh, you know, credibility and expertise, it's like, you know, he, he could tell me that the sky was red, and I'd be like, "Okay, Craig." Like, "Yeah, whatever you say," you know? 16:19 [laughs] Um- Craig, you know, I just, I actually was just, um, I messaged with him earlier because I wanna bring him over a, a copy of the record 'cause he doesn't have it yet. I just got these copies. 16:29 So Craig was the first person I met down here through my friend Jason, who has a small studio here in town called Noble Steed, and that's what Craig, uh, works out of, and they're partners in that studio. 16:43 So I met Craig, like, via Zoom calls, and he was one of the first people I said, "Hey, I have this idea for this record. This is what I wanna do." And, you know, I explained the vision for it, and he got it. 16:54 He was like, "Yep, I totally get it." And I came down and met him in that studio that's right down the block from where I'm staying right now. And Craig was part of the, the whole process. 17:05 We, you know, we recorded, um, at Fame, of course, at Muscle Shoals Sound, but also we did overdubs and, uh, we cut Hold On, I'm Comin'. Um, we cut Horns over at his studio at Noble Steed. 17:19 And again, just what part of the, you know, kind of woven into the fabric down here, someone that came from Nashville by way of Portland, and kind of found out that, you know, two hours south of Nashville, which is 17:32 amazing, but also it's just a behemoth city now, you know? You come down here and there's all these studios, big and small, and it's chill, and it's, you can kind of live a quiet life but be amongst the greats. 17:47 You can be a great. There are so many greats here in town. And I think, I know C- Craig talked to me about that. He says that's what drew him down here, too, and bringing his family down here. Um, yeah. 17:58 So yeah, he's our, he's our engineer on the record and, um, we had a blast working together. So he won a Grammy with, uh, Kacey Musgraves', uh- Mm-hmm... album, and worked with a bunch of people. 18:09 But one thing that he said that is really, really interesting, he said, like, a lot of these folks that he works with, uh, they sort of suffer from, you know, what he called artistic dysmorphia. Mm-hmm. 18:20 Which is this thing that an artist doesn't really know what makes them great You know, they're, they're sort of afraid to lean into that Mm-hmm. Uh, can you relate to that at all? 18:31 I think, I think that I have had shades of that in my career when I was trying to fit myself into a box or a lane because I was told this would work, or you should do this, or you should try to do this. 18:47 And as a songwriter, uh, every record I made before this one was of my own music, um, that I'd written myself, predominantly myself. Don't, haven't really even done a ton of co-writes. 18:57 Um, and it was hard for me to sort of figure out, like, well, do I fit in the singer-songwriter world? Like, what is that? But I love soul music and r- and I've got this big voice that I love to use, and I love 19:11 raw stuff, and I, I had a really hard time assimilating the two for a while. And so for me, when I felt that, what you're talking about, it was really at times when 19:24 I was like, "I'm gonna make this record that'll totally fit in the songwriter category lane, and ag- it's got a..." And I remember the feeling I had was I'm sort of b- I'm boxing myself in. 19:33 You know, don't sing too much that, and don't do this, and don't... Make sure you stay this, and I'm thinking about what works in the business, and all of that stuff, and it did not make me happy. 19:43 And what's different about this project, and it's interesting because I stepped away from my own songwriting and I gravitated back to the stuff that influenced my songwriting and the sounds that influenced my songwriting. 19:53 This is the first record I've ever made when the entire process was so incredibly joyful and so much fun. 20:01 I was so depressed when we were done recording it, and every other record I've made, I've been like, "Oh, I just wanna get this part done 'cause I wanna go play live. That's my favorite thing to do." 20:10 And that tells me a lot about being true to what is in you, really being true to what is organic to you. Whatever you are as an artist, don't try to label it and fit yourself in a lane. 20:23 Do the thing that you do, and let everybody else figure out what that is. 20:26 Because when it's real and raw and organic and coming from that core, guttural place in your soul, people respond to it, and you respond to it, and you wanna keep going. 20:37 And that was, like, a hard lesson I learned doing this, and I'll never go back to trying to fit into anything now. I'll just do exactly what I do with my writing going forward as well. 20:47 [laughs] So this is a album of songs recorded 40, 50 years ago, and Muscle Shoals- Mm-hmm... none, no originals, uh, which we'll talk- Mm-hmm... 20:57 like, I think you've got aspirations to, to maybe do some in Muscle Shoals-inspired original tunes at some point. But how did these songs that are on this album influence you as a songwriter throughout your career? Yeah. 21:08 Yeah. So I think the biggest one I could point to is, of course, Aretha Franklin, and pri- primarily people th- you say Aretha Franklin, they think, like, the big voice, you know, the, the Queen of Soul, all that stuff. 21:18 Absolutely, but, like, people need to zone in on her piano playing, you know? And she came up in the church playing piano. And so when I sit and I watch videos of her, and I've done this, 21:28 you know, since I was 19 years old, playing piano and singing, whether it's songs that other people wrote for her or songs that she had a hand in or the Carole King hits that she had, um, that really, really shaped me. 21:42 And you can hear that in certain songs I have that have these, like, little flickers of what sounds like gospel-influenced voicings or chord structures or piano playing. 21:53 Um, and even though she wasn't pri- primarily a writer, um, her playing and the way she sang and what these other writers wrote for her, especially the Carole King stuff, I mean, like, "Natural Woman" is one of my favorite songs written, and Carole wrote that, and Aretha made it what the world knows. 22:14 It was a perfect pairing. So there's examples of that. 22:17 And then also on the record, you know, I have a Bob Dylan song, and o- okay, arguably the, one of the greatest songwriters of our time, although I know the fight's always between him and Joni Mitchell. 22:25 I have this fight with people all the time. [laughs] But I digress. [laughs] You know, with Dylan, i- he influenced and, and is the cornerstone of all modern songwriters, really. 22:35 You can trace it back to, like, that's when it changed for songwriting. And so l- looking at him 22:44 and looking at the gospel record that he made and the song that I chose that's on this album that ends the record called "When He Returns," that writing, that folk, 22:55 uh, stanza sort of writing where you have a s- uh, a stanza and then the refrain again, and the refrain, that's real traditional folk writing. You can hear that all over my original music. 23:06 I have a song, uh, one of my fan favorites of people that followed me for a long time called "Angel Weep for Me," and it's exactly that, and that comes from listening to artists like Bob Dylan or early Joni Mitchell records when she was influenced by Joan Baez. 23:20 Um, and the, I mean, I could go on and on about that, the Wilson Pickett song and how, like, soul tunes, like the Sam & Dave tunes, so- soul songs are structured. 23:29 Um, but so many of the songs that are on this record, especially the Aretha stuff, the Etta James songs, the Dylan tune, 23:38 uh, "Wild Horses" by the Stones, heavily influence my songwriting since I can remember hearing these artists. All right. So talk about that bit. 23:49 We've talked about your songwriting, but you, you have sort of some ideas and goals to have this be a multi-part series, uh- Yeah... centered around Muscle Shoals. Mm-hmm. 23:59 So this is the tribute album, all other people's songs that you, you, you're redoing. What, what could be in the future for you, uh, as it relates to other things? Yeah. So you know what's interesting? 24:12 Leading up to the process that started making this record, I had... I was very cut off from my writer's side. The last record of original music I had made was during the pandemic. 24:26 And life and running around on tour, and I just, I wasn't getting ideas. I wasn't super inspired. I wasn't in a place, um, phys- geographically that was inspiring me a lot. 24:39 And I noticed that if I'd sit down at the piano and be like, "All right, I got, I need to, I need to get some stuff in the bag here," you know, for whatever's coming down the line, 24:47 I just, nothing was coming and nothing was happening. Tale as old as time, every songwriter goes through these, you know, periods, these ups and downs. So when I came down here to start the process, and the creative 25:01 part of my brain and soul and heart was just, like, fed a 25:08 t- 20-course meal all of a sudden of beautiful creativity that was making my brain and heart explode, and, you know, I could feel parts of me coming back alive that I had kinda been cut off from a while. And 25:23 wouldn't you know it, I sit down at the piano and I'm, like, cranking songs out [laughs]. Like, here they come. Here's another one. Oh my God, here's another. And I really like what's happening. 25:31 I like what I'm thinking, and I'm getting, I'm writing about the, the location and the people here I'm meeting and the feelings I'm having. And 25:40 I mean, through the course of making this record, I've written eight or 10 songs on my own, and haven't even jumped into the folks that I've met that I wanna co-write with for what will be next. 25:52 So what I love about this idea of making the next record here in Muscle Shoals as sort of a w- the second of what I hope is a three-part series is it'll be a completely original record, all influenced by me being here in this area, which is exactly why people came to this area to record in the first place, because something about the vibration 26:15 turned them on in a way that, that they were able to execute something in the studio that vibrated with the rest of the world. And the same h- thing happened to me when I came here. That river energy, man. So now... 26:25 [laughs] Yeah, it's crazy. Hell yes. I'm telling you. And you hear that. I mean, I talk about it in so- my, some of my song lyrics. 26:30 The Tennessee River is i- all over my song lyrics for a bunch of these songs that I've written since I've been here. 26:36 So that I'm really excited about, and it's so funny s- you know, I haven't even launched this one out yet, but now my head is thinking about, uh... 26:43 And that's, anybody, you know, we're all, all of us crazy artists in the music business, that's the thing. You have to be present and be in the moment what you're doing. 26:50 You also have to be thinking, like, a year and a half ahead all the time, which is kind of maddening. [laughs] But, um, yeah, I'm excited about that idea. 26:58 And, you know, the first one was just a vision and an idea that became a reality, so, you know, why can't I do that again? Let's do it again. And then part three would be kind of a combination of the two? Yeah. 27:08 My, my thought for part three would be to... Exactly. 27:12 It would be more original songs, but also digging back into the Shoals catalog, songs that I loved but didn't make it on this record, finding some more special guests, uh, to feature on it, and sort of rounding out this three-part 27:27 time of my life being down here with three different projects that are all very, very tied together. We look forward to that. First things first- Yeah... let's get this first one released. [laughs] Definitely. 27:36 Um, all right. So pivot a, a little bit, uh, you are a mom, correct? Yes, I am. Do you just have the, the one daughter, or do you have more? Just one. One. Just the one. And how old is she? Yeah. She is seven. 27:48 She's seven. She's a m- magical bundle of energy, and it's wild to watch a life unfold in front of you, so that's, um, incredible and, um, also challenging to, to d- to be in music and be a mother and 28:05 manage both very strange worlds at the same time. Yeah, I was gonna ask you about that. So in your, uh, previous EP, I think Destination Home, you even talked- Mm-hmm... 28:15 about how you had, like, a little bit of a breakdown on an airplane where- Yeah... I don't know if it was a sense of guilt that you had to be on the road, um- Yeah... sort of this motherhood- Yeah... 28:26 calling, and then also the fact that, like, this is actually what I love and what I- Yeah... have to be doing anyway, which is what you said earlier, like, performing live. 28:33 So have you, I guess in the seven years, uh, or so, have you fine-tuned how you're navigating that, and is it, is it better, or do you still have that tension? 28:43 You know, it's funny because y- I think I have fine-tuned it, and then it changes because being sev- or being seven where she is now is only lasts a year, and being six only lasts a year, being eight only... 28:55 So as we all know, being a human, especially the first 18 years of your life, is a constantly evolving process, and then one- once you think you, "Okay, I got this down," boom, something else changes because she's in a constant state of rapid evolution as a little child growing up. 29:12 Um, and for me, I feel like I'm in this evolution of myself as a artist and a, a, a touring musician, and it all coincided at the same time. You know, me having her. A, a very good friend of mine... 29:27 Oh my God, if he ev- if he sees this, he's gonna laugh 'cause he, he, I tell pe- this all the time and he makes fun of me 'cause I say it all the time. A good friend of mine, his name's Scott Sherrad. 29:35 He's a guitar player. He fronts the band Little Feat now. 29:38 He was in Gregg Allman's band for years, but he and I, we go all the way back to, like, our earliest days in New York running around playing $50 gigs at the Bitter End, and we're, like, family. 29:47 Um, and I remember I was, like, seven months pregnant and he's like, "Oh, come on. Let's, meet me for ramen. It'll be great. We'll go out to eat." So I'm, I waddle up and I'm like, "Oh my God, this is insane. 29:57 Like, what, how am I gonna do this? This is crazy," and I da... And he, I remember he said to me, he's like, "No, no, no, don't worry. Kids are good luck. As soon as you have a kid, your career is gonna explode. 30:07 This is exactly what happened to me." And I was like, "Okay, whatever." 30:10 [laughs] And then, like, so she was one month old and I, I got, you know, a call to go on a really big tour, and, like, it, it actually, exactly, that's exactly what happened, and my whole life became much bigger much quickly, and I had to learn how to adapt very quickly. 30:27 Um, and so it's just a constant juggle, and there's a lot less time for Uh, you know, I don't get to come home off the road and decompress. You know, if, like, take a day, like, that's, that doesn't exist. 30:40 There's nothing like- That's not a thing. No. Yeah. Yeah. You come home, you're on. And that can be really hard, and also I know that it's temporary, you know? 30:50 Um, y- you know, and the d- whole Destination Home record that I made, that whole EP was about exactly this. It was all about her and how the challenges of this, but also that I know it's gonna go like that. 31:04 There's a song on there that I wrote for her called Sleepy Girl. It's a lullaby, and it just exactly articulates that, that fragileness of childhood and how I'm nostalgic for it even while it's happening. Um, and 31:19 it's, it's a weird juggle, man, 'cause when I'm, I'm out in the world, I'm like, "Yeah, me, I'm doing my thing, and I'm really connected to who I am," but then I'm like, "But this extension of my heart is over there." 31:29 And then when I get home, the other extension of my heart that is me the artist is out there. So it's like the balance is the sweet spot for me. Too much of either one and I get, uh, weird and off-kilter. 31:40 No, that's, that's actually a good point, 'cause y- yeah, yeah, too much of one thing is, is, is too much. Yeah, and I mean, you're, when you're a parent, you're on. You're always on. Yeah. But luckily, you know, 31:50 we're able to balance it out together so when I'm gone, I can be gone. When my husband's gone, he can be gone. Right. And we kinda have that figured out. That's good. All right. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. 32:04 I guess, uh, in, in wrapping up, I, I, I... This podcast is inspired by, um, a bunch of things, but Ted Lasso is one of them. Um- Love it. So- I know. That's when I first saw your podcast. 32:14 I was like, Curious Goldfish, is this about Ted Lasso? [laughs] Yeah, so, you know, whatever. Uh, but anyway- Mm-hmm... 32:21 just the, the idea of, like, curiosity, I think it's, like, extremely underrated in, uh, relationships. Oh, man. Right? It's the cornerstone. I couldn't agree with you more. It, it is, 32:34 it is the thing that will keep you alive in all relationships, your personal, your business, your creative. Mm-hmm. The curiosity is what allows things to continue to grow and expand in all those things, you know? 32:47 And, like, I know you know what I'm talking about, in the show when he's throwing the darts, and he said, "That hit me hard." When I saw that, I was like- Right... 32:54 that is exactly the thing that makes the difference between you having a profoundly deep connection with someone regardless of what the relationship is or not. It's that exact thing, curiosity. Yeah. 33:08 And I think what's interesting too is, like, again, not to paint a broad brush, I've talked to a, a fair number of musicians at this point in the last few years doing this. 33:17 On one hand, I think they are the most curious people on Earth. Mm-hmm. Right? Because they're looking, they're seeing, they're listening, you know, and that, and that obviously translates into what they create. 33:31 But then it, the, then it's, like, I don't know if it's ego or whatever, but then it's like, then it's all about them, you know? Mm-hmm. It's just, like- Yep... really weird, uh, tension. I don't know. Yeah. It can... 33:42 It's a weird... It is a weird thing because 33:46 it has to be a little bit of both, you know, to be, uh, you know, for this world that we're in, and may- it's the same for actors or anybody else that's in, like, a performance-based career. You know, you have to be, 33:57 if you're curious and you're willing to... You know, Stevie Wonder would always say, "When you, when you walk in the studio, leave room for God to walk into the room. Don't try to control the whole thing so much." 34:07 You know, be open to what else could be flowing to you. That's the curiosity thing. At the same time, you do have to know when to hold strong to your own ideas, your own motivations, your own, um, vision of things. 34:23 Um, you have to have a smart business head so you don't get pushed around, you don't get taken advantage of. Um, and then you have to promote, and promoting is super egocentric. Right. You know? 34:33 It's just, it's all of that. And there are times, I talk, we talk about this all the time with friends. 34:38 There, there are times where it feels, like, really great, and there are times where you're just so sick of looking at yourself and picking yourself apart and talking about yourself. 34:47 And then you think about, like, the world, like, the, all that's going on in the world, and you're like, "This is so stupid. Like, this isn't important," you know, when all of this insanity is happening in the world. 34:55 And, you know, that's, usually if I hit a peak like that, I'm like, "I, you know, I need to get off social media and go for a walk and, like [laughs] not... Take a break." You know? Because it can be gross. Yeah. 35:07 The, the ego side of it can be gross. So you do have to have a balance of both, I think. Yeah. All right. Well, so I have to ask, right? 35:14 Uh, so at this point in your career and as a mother and as a wife, what are you most curious about? Oh, man. If I had to answer that with one 35:24 thing, I mean, I'm curious about 100 billion things that, across a lot of topics, from, like, cooking to gardening to astrophysics. Like, a lot of stuff. Um, but it, to, to be broad about it, I think it would be the, 35:40 I am, uh, constantly curious about seeking, um, seeking what else I can find and get into and, and experience in this life, in this world. 35:56 Um, and by that, I mean I've traveled a lot. I've traveled all over the world many times, and I feel like I haven't even got started. 36:04 Like, when I look at a map and I count countries, I'm like, "Jeez, man, I only got, like, 42 countries. I gotta get, like, 100," you know? Or, "This is, you know, I'm here on Earth, you know? 36:12 I gotta s- I wanna see as much as I can." Um, I want to experience, uh, people and places and music through music as much as possible, and, um, that's where I wanna kind of keep really expanding. 36:29 So what I can bring to the table with what I do, I wanna bring that into situations where I can vibrate with other people like that and, and we can be part of wonderful projects together. 36:38 I love being collaborative with other people. I'll meet somebody new, I'll learn something new, I'll make a new friend, I'll make a new relationship. 36:45 I really, I really love that and value that in life, and I wouldn't be good without that. I would not be good without those things that expand, whether it's geographically or socially, mentally. 37:00 And that's very typical of Sagittarius, too. If anybody out there is a Sagittarius watching, that is, like, to the letter. [laughs] We need to, like, fly and go find adventure. Yeah. All right. Well, thanks for sharing. 37:13 Yeah. Uh, uh, you do wanna travel more, but I think you've found your destination home there in Muscle Shoals, so- Oh, man, yeah. You know, it's really, it's an incredible place, um, 37:24 to come and to make music and learn about the history. 37:27 And they have a program here, I have to mention, they have a program called the Shoals Music Maker Incentive, and it's, it's a f- it's financially funded, which is rare in America. 37:37 You know, you go to Canada and they, they'll give grants for all kinds of stuff, you know, right there. 37:41 But here in the Shoals, to incentivize people to come down here and make records and bring the new, what is the new sound of Muscle Shoals? Let's bring it here. Let's keep it going. 37:53 You know, you keep your accounting straight, and you apply for this grant, and you, you s- send them all of your receipts and your invoices and your record release, and, um, you go through a couple of steps, and they reimburse you for a large percentage of what you spend here in every part of making the record: your travel, y- where you stay, obviously the recording, the mastering, the mixing. 38:17 So I can't recommend it enough for people to look into that program, 'cause living in a country that doesn't always financially support artists to make art, you can find that here in Muscle Shoals. It's incredible. 38:28 Yeah, good to know. That's great. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, so Chris, you're, great to meet you. Congrats on the album- Thanks, Jason... everything around it. Uh, can't wait to meet you in person, and, uh- Likewise... 38:38 hope, hope you have a great rest of 2026. Thanks. You as well. See you soon.
