Transcript 0:00 [bubbling] [upbeat guitar music] And, you know, we, uh... Our conversations about music led into conversations about everything. 0:17 We just fell into being friends just as much as colleagues almost immediately, you know? Yeah. And we decided to sort of, like, hatch a, an escape plan and, uh, get out of jazz prison together. 0:30 For one thing, you know, like, even, even in the context of the, The Lumineers, playing the 50,000-seat venues is not as exciting as playing a small room. Hmm. Like, you don't have the intimacy. 0:41 The, the bigger the crowd gets, the more sort of abstract it gets, and it's fun, but it's much more electrifying to play a small theater. 0:50 But really, the thing is, with The Lumineers, I'm the bass player and background singer. I'm not a writer in that band. I, I love being a part of it. It's a lot of fun, but it's not my thing. 1:05 With Peter, it's our thing, and there's no replacing that. [upbeat music] Hi, I'm Jason English and this is Curious Goldfish, a music podcast about more than music. I can't sing. 1:22 I don't play an instrument or write songs, but I've always been curious about the people who can, the ones honest enough to put what they're feeling and dealing with into three minutes, and then hand it to a stranger. 1:34 So those are the people I sit down with. We get underneath the music releases by digging into the doubt, the dark forests, the money, and the reason that they haven't quit. Welcome to Curious Goldfish. 1:51 For 30 years, Peter Kohl and Byron Isaacs have made Lost Leaders records with their door closed. Then came their first opportunity to work on a film. 2:00 The movie Run started as a request for one song, and grew into them doing the whole soundtrack and the score. The duo was born in Levon Helm's barn. 2:09 Byron played in Levon's band for years before he became the bassist for The Lumineers. We talk about what you learn when the music isn't only yours, and what Levon taught Byron about every second being on stage. 2:22 So now, from the Hudson River Valley in New York, here are best friends Peter Kohl and Byron Isaacs of Lost Leaders. Let's dive in. Byron and Peter, it's a pleasure to meet you. Thanks so much for your time. Thanks. 2:38 Thank you for having us. Yeah. 2:40 You have a lot going on with music and film, which we're gonna get into, but, uh, so Lost Leaders, uh, it sounds like a relationship that started 30 some odd years ago, and then you're involved with a really cool project with a film called Run. 2:52 I, I wanna start there. How'd you guys get involved in, in the film? Well- Our publisher, who's based in, in LA, does a lot of, like, music supervision work, and, um- His name is Charles Newman. Right. 3:07 Uh- And his company is Mother West. So, so yeah. So he reps Lost Leaders. He reps, you know, a whole bunch of other artists as well and, and, um, [clears throat] 3:18 he's always working on film projects and TV shows and stuff. I can't remember [clears throat] why we were sort of tapped for this particular one initially, but, but it came through him. So the director of this movie, um, 3:37 had done a previous one with Charles, with him as the music supervisor. So she came to him again to do this one and, um, and, uh, yeah. I think it started with us just to write a song for it or something, and then it 3:54 grew into us doing, you know, producing the whole soundtrack, writing an original song, writing the whole score. Like, you know, it sort of turned into much bigger than that. All right. Well, that's cool. 4:07 H- how much of it do you think had to do with, like, your acting experience- Oh-... Peter, and, and that, was that just a coincidence or- Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That, that, that's un- un- [laughs] that's un- unrelated. 4:17 I don't even think they knew about that. Well, Charles knew, but I don't think the director knew. Uh- Okay... you know. 4:22 Actually, Peter was gonna be in the film, and only because of a logistical issue, uh, he ended up not being in it. But, uh, he was gonna appear, have that little cameo in there. 4:33 Because when the director found out that Peter... Uh, we were already in the, the midst of doing the film. 4:38 The director found out that Peter was an actor, saw the film that Peter, um, was, uh, had such a big part in, and said, "You have to be in this film." [laughs] And, uh, and of course it was just gonna be a small walk-on. 4:52 But, um, I think, you know, I personally was pretty disappointed that it ended up working out. Yeah, I was kinda bummed. Yeah. 4:58 Have e- either of you had much experience working in, in cinema as it relates to, to music, or is this- This is the first time for both of us. Yeah. All right. And what a learning experience. 5:08 Give me the headlines on that. How much of a mind shift or a new, new muscle memory did you have to develop to, to do this? I mean, as a band, Peter and I have pretty much been able to do everything, just the two of us. 5:22 We are the think tank and we produce the records. Occasionally, we've worked with outside producers. I mean, really just once, and that was really fun. 5:31 But we, uh, uh, continued really after that even to, to go back to producing our own albums. And so, you know, first off, the first main shift was we were just one small part of the think tank. 5:49 You know? Yes, we were supposed to be producing the soundtrack and also writing the in- all the ins- interstitial music and writing an original song. But, um-... 6:03 like we were kind of expecting to be more s- uh, in charge of steering the ship. Mm. And we came to find out that film is very, very different. Film, uh, it's really, it's all down to the director, 6:18 and then there's also- Also... the music supervisor. There's also the editor will chime in. There, uh, there are the producers. That's just- Producers were showing up at the recording studio while we were recording. 6:29 Yeah. Um, and, uh, I mean, and we, you know, found out that this is the way that it is, like this is film. 6:38 Like, you know, you can't do the thing that you do in rock and roll where you block everybody out and you're like, "No, we're like, we're in our cocoon here, and the outside world, like none of the A and R guys in the suits and the... 6:50 You know, nobody's allowed in." Boy, is it the opposite. [laughs] And that in itself was, was jarring. 6:57 And I think right off the bat, we were a little belligerent, uh, in the beginning about some initial changes they wanted until we sort of understood the lay of the land and figured out really what this is all about. 7:12 And then we made the adjustment and began to really enjoy the, uh, collective thinking, the hive mind. Mind. All it took was us making that adjustment to, for it to actually become a, a pretty wonderful process. 7:28 Like every step of the way we were surprised. None of it ran the way that the music, uh, process does all in of itself. Yeah. Th- th- there were some like... Really, there are kinda like s- two pieces to it. 7:42 One is the soundtrack and one is the score. Mm-hmm. So the soundtrack to, uh, uh, you know, logistics aside and, and sort of the culture of it aside, you know, was more familiar because we're making a record, right? 7:58 Mm-hmm. Um, although the nature of the record was that there was a different female singer on every song. There were 10, I believe, uh, covers essentially, right, that they have licensed the right to use. 8:12 Lost Leaders did our, we did our version of those. Mm-hmm. Had a new singer on each one. But you know, that part of it w- well, wasn't so different from, you know, making a normal album, right? 8:28 The bigger learning curve is the score. You know, writing, you know, interstitial music and music to a scene to support acting, to support... You're not writing a song, right? 8:38 You're not, you know, or, or producing a song. You know what I mean? It's a different, a different, uh... You know, so to me at any rate, that was the bigger... That half of it was more of a learning curve. 8:50 But you know, but to Byron's point, yeah, it's a work for hire. They hired us because they want us, but it's not our record. You know what I mean? Right. 8:58 From the strictest- Yeah, that's part of what took a little bit of adjustment. Right. You know, even, even with the soundtrack part of it. Um, you know, like this is supposed to be Lost Leaders. Right. Well, not really. 9:10 Sorta. Once we made that adjustment in our minds, it's like, well, this process is really enjoyable in its own right and- Right... 9:18 is yielding its own kind of fruit, and it's not something that we would've done the same way, uh, on our own. 9:25 You can either be mad about that or back off and see actually how wonderful that is, and it, and, and it was wonderful. And I think, you know, Peter and I would both jump at the chance to do this again. Yeah. 9:37 And, uh, and the fact that we're a little bit better informed about the process now would, you know, make it, uh, e- that much better. So, uh, uh, can I ask a timing question? 9:46 When you think about the score, what do you have to work with? Is it just the screenplay or are, are scenes actually acted and pr- you know, produced by the time you see it? Like what... 9:57 Wh- when do you guys get involved? Yeah. For the score, yeah. So the soundtrack, this movie was a little unusual in the fact that the, the soundtrack was thought of songs or thought of as characters in the movie. 10:09 So the, the nature of the story is this, you know, woman is running a marathon, and through a series of flashbacks while she's running, 10:19 her story- Which are being triggered by the music that she has on her, that she selected for her, uh- Right... play- playlist. Right. 10:27 So each song has an important role to play in setting up a scene that you're flashing back to. So we did the soundtrack wa- before the movie even started filming. Then the score part, yeah, that comes later. There's... 10:44 The movie is shot at that point. 10:46 They're feeding us scenes in various states of final edit and saying things like, you know, "Over the course of this," you know, "this might be a minute long or 30 seconds or whatever it is. 10:58 You know, here's the emotional temperature that we're looking for. We need it to start here, end here, et cetera." 11:04 And then we would start literally while you're watching the thing on the screen composing and writing and doing our stuff, and, uh, that kept getting... 11:15 As the edits changed, you had to start changing what you did and, you know, it was a lot of back and forth. The, the two processes were, were completely different for me. Yeah. Two different, yeah. So you... 11:25 Someone used the, I think Byron, it was you that used the term jarring. So having never done it, the first time you see these scenes and then get the notes, were you like, "Okay, where do I..." 11:36 Like, you know, "Is this a, is this a guitar? Is this a pian..." You know, like how, how much did it, how much did you actually have to do it to actually do it, you know? 11:44 Or was it kind of just automatic because you guys are so, you know, mu- musically oriented and are, you know, professionals in your own right? You know, we, um, 11:55 we talked with the supervisor and the director about a sort of general sonic, um, uh, world that we would be coming from. 12:04 And so, and it was going to- Have sounds that were similar to the sounds that we had in the soundtrack recordings. So we knew that we would have electric guitar, acoustic guitar, and Wurlitzer. Hmm. 12:19 And sometimes maybe drums, but usually maybe, like, little hand percussion stuff. 12:24 But that it'd be like a, you know, Wurlitzer piano and, uh, uh, and some guitars, and particularly Peter's guitars because that's, you know, that's, for one thing, it's his sound, and it's also a sound that's featured throughout the soundtrack songs. 12:42 So there was kind of a sonic, uh, a starting place that, fr- from which we could jump off, you know? Awesome. Yeah. I, I also found that, like, you try things, and it's really clear when it doesn't work, you know? Yeah. 12:59 You're, you're trying something and you're like, "This is not an acoustic guitar. This is wrong. It, this needs to be electric." Or, like, you just sorta know it. You're watching the scene. Hmm. You're trying stuff. 13:08 To a certain extent, you gotta throw some shit against the wall to see what sticks. You know what I mean? And, and then hone in on what's working. It helped, uh, for them to give us, uh, guidelines. Like, having- Hmm... 13:20 those limitations, like, you know, like, it made it so much easier. Hmm. It's, you know, if we had just had the, the whole world of sonic possibilities, uh, to choose from, it would've been a very arduous process. 13:33 But because we had a limited palette, um, that had been decided upon, it made it much easier and a lot more fun. Hmm. Yeah. Yeah, sometimes constraints are helpful. Oh. You know? Yes. Thank goodness for them. 13:45 Sometimes they're not, sometimes they are. Um, so I think, think I've heard that the, the movie's supposed to come out in the fall of 2026. 13:53 There's not a date yet, but have you guys seen anything that's kinda close to a final edit with your music? Yep. We did. Yeah. Yeah. How, how exciting was that? It was really- Amazing... yeah. They, they've, they... 14:05 It's edited, you know, in a post-production facility, so it's like a mini movie theater with a full-sized screen, you know? And- Big sound system... yeah, the whole thing. Just like you'd see in a real cinema, you know. 14:17 So we go, we sit. 14:18 The mix engineer, the movie mix engineer is there, the producer, the director, us, you know, and that was when we got to see the finished movie, and then also hear everything we did as it will be heard, you know, properly mixed, up in the big speakers, you know, just like... 14:35 So that was so cool. It was amazing. [laughs] That's so... The sensory impact has to be so different. Oh, completely. 14:44 Like, when I heard my little, you know, electric piano, like, coming out sounding huge on these speakers. I mean, it sounded- Yeah... amazing. [laughs] Yeah. I was like, "Wow, I've never heard it sound like that." 14:55 I almost fell out of my seat, you know? What's, what's... I mean, the movie's about this, the marathon and, and I think a woman that's going through some changes in her life. 15:03 And what's so compelling about it that would encourage whoever watches this or listens to this to go and, and watch it? It's a really cool story. 15:13 The, the twists that happen in the storytelling are, uh, like, like, where the plot goes, um, is actually surprising in this way that r- is, mimics... 15:22 You know, sometimes, you know, you'll read, like, somebody's biography, and there'll be stuff that happens in real life every time that's so much more outlandish than- [laughs]... what you see in art usually. 15:32 People don't feel like they can get away with, you know, kinda crazy things happening. 15:38 Um, and it's not like aliens land or something absurd like that, but, but, like, there are really great and wonderful real-life kinds of, like, twists and turns that happen in this film that to me really make it great. 15:52 And it comes from the book that the movie, you know, was, was, uh, based on. You know, I had to, you know, ask, uh, the, the author, you know, "Is, is this really what happened?" 16:02 And she, she's like, "No, it's just a story I wrote." It's like, "Really?" [laughs] All right. Well, it's, it's... And, and the book is, is it Plain Jane? Is that the book, right? Yes. Yeah, yeah. Okay. All right. 16:12 So the movie's run. It's out, uh, in later in 2026, so that's cool. And, uh, the, the single that's been released, you mentioned earlier, Peter, uh, the, the female vocalist. Uh, the single is Atalanta with Amy Helm. 16:25 Is that right? Yeah. That's right. Amy sang it. It's, it... So it's, uh, it, it's our contribution, our original song for the soundtrack that Amy sang. It was Byron's concept so that Atalanta, 16:40 although she's the Greek goddess of the hunt, I believe, was best known for this race. Uh, the goddess of the hunt is, is Artemis, but, uh, Atalanta was just at the time a human- Oh... 16:50 not a goddess or anything, but she was just the fastest, she was the fastest human in the world. I see. 16:55 Um, and so then there ended up being a big race for, uh, that her father made her do for her hand in marriage, and she didn't wanna do it. And Athena herself, like, sabotaged her, and, like, you know, there's just... 17:10 It's, it's rich with a lot of symbolism. It hit me that there, like, thematically, there were some parallels- Hmm... with this movie. Uh, you know, not to a T, but there's just enough in there that, um- Hmm... 17:23 that, you know, that I, I chose her as sort of the, uh, the character for the song. We were very pleased that when we played the song for the, uh, the, the pr- director and producers, the director cried. Okay. Yeah. 17:40 So it was like, wow, I guess we- Yeah... actually, we, we nailed one. [laughs] Yeah. Well, it, I mean, I will say it's easy on the ears. 17:50 I, I, when I was preparing for this, I listened to it and I, I kept on going like, "I'm gonna listen to that again." Like, it's very- Oh, great... very sweet. 17:57 Obviously Amy's got a great voice, and Byron, you've got a, a tremendous history with the family and, and going back to the, to the Woodstock days and the barn, and I think you slept in Levon's barn at some point, I, I read or- Oh, I mean, yeah, for, for a brief time 18:12 Yeah. So how, I guess how important was it for, to have Amy involved in the original song that you guys put together? I mean, you know, it was, it, I, I, I think it was just good synergy and kismet really, right? Yeah. 18:27 I mean, we wrote the song and, uh, and I don't know, I just called up Amy and I was like, "Hey, would you do this?" 18:36 [laughs] Like, you know, uh, she's just one of my all-time, I mean, both of ours, but, uh, like all-time favorite singers. 18:42 And, and, uh, and I knew that she would be able to inject her own depth, um, yeah, in- into the, into this, into that song. And, like, just, um, you know... And sh- she sure as hell did. 18:56 I mean, she was in and out of the studio in, like, an hour. [laughs] She just sang the song, you know... What, how many takes did we have? Four? Oh my gosh. Uh, not ma- yeah. 19:06 Like she sang the living shit out of it, just, you know. And, uh, like it, it, you know, she, she was feeling it, and I, I knew that she would. In her own way she embodies this character, too, you know? I think, um, uh, 19:22 there's a universality to, to the Atalanta story, and it's probably why it was on my mind, why it came to me when, when reading the Jane story. Um, and yeah, I mean, Amy, Amy's always gonna be on my short list. 19:36 I just, for anything I can involve her in, you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, you know, do my darnedest to corral her. [laughs] Awesome. And it's a great song. Um, so congrats. Con- congrats on that. 19:48 I guess, uh, little bit of a, not a pivot, but a little bit of a related topic. You know, talk about, like, the Hu- Hudson Valley and your all's history as friends and as collaborators. 20:00 Um, so again, you know, not that I've talked to a million people, but, uh, what's interesting about some of the people I've talked to is the sense of place, and then the geography around it. 20:11 So I'll give you a couple examples. I've talked to a f- few people that grew up in and live or ha- spend a lot of time in Memphis. Mm. 20:18 And it's like, yeah, Memphis, but it's, more importantly it's the Mississippi River and the Delta. Right. I've talked to people in Fort Worth, uh, which has its own sort of personality compared to Dallas, and- Right... 20:30 whether that's country or singer-songwriter or folk. Well, it's cattle trade, you know? Yeah, cattle trade. Like, there's, it's got its own little thing there. And then, um, Muscle Shoals obviously- Yeah... 20:40 with, um, with the history there, and then the fact that, like, the Tennessee River is right there. And, 20:47 like, when I w- I was, you know, again, preparing for this and the, the notion of the Hudson Valley came, you know, kept being a theme the, in the stuff I was reading. 20:56 Can you guys talk about that and, like, I guess the energy of that area? 21:01 Uh, I haven't spent much time up there, but, you know, what, how has that sort of translated into who you guys became as musicians and as friends and as, as people? 21:10 Yeah, I mean, it, I mean, wow, it's a, an interesting question. I mean, Byron certainly is more connected to Woodstock than I am, although Lost Leaders, as you were saying, was really born in Levon Helm's barn really. 21:24 Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? And, and so, and our genesis is in Woodstock. Mm-hmm. But, uh, you know, the Hudson Valley is, uh, physically amazing. I mean, it really is special. It's incredible. 21:37 You have a whole painting school, you know, d- that named themselves the Hud- the Hudson Valley School of Painting. That's right. That's- And the, the Byrdcliffe Art Colony. Yeah, Thomas Cole and, and, you know, this... 21:50 So it's a whole... It is amazing when you drive up the Hudson River. 21:54 Um, and the fact that it's tethered directly to New York City, um, you know, there's a direct pipeline and, um- But it's also far enough to be a refuge from New York City. Mm-hmm. Right. It, it's a magical place. 22:08 Obviously Woodstock's famous for its arts colony and for its, you know, well, even if, uh, Bob Dylan is the best known, you know, but it predates his involvement. 22:18 Well, I mean, uh, John Cage's Four Minutes and 33 Seconds famous piece, um, one of its premieres was at Maverick, uh, Theatre in Woodstock, which is a legendary c- classical music place, and was a hive- Mm... 22:36 of, of that musical world, too. So there's a, you know, there's a, a, there's a classical world. There are many jazz greats who live up there. Of course. Um, uh, there's, uh, you know, it, there's... 22:48 It's just so fertile. There's so many artists, and there's still tons of painters. Um, you know, there's dance, there's... I mean, it's, uh... 22:59 You know, in a way, now that New York City's become so expensive, you just don't see as many young artists as you used to- Mm... in the city. Uh, but you sure do up in the Hudson Valley. Yeah. 23:10 And not just Woodstock, all over. Mm-hmm. I mean, that whole area is just full of talent, and always has been, and, uh, it just feels like it always will be. It's like there's magic in those hills. Yeah. 23:23 [laughs] The, again, not to get too mystic, but, like, the Memphis folks, the Muscle Shoals folks, they talk about this energy, like this weird energy from the river- Yeah... 23:31 as sort of this en- like, this, like, subconscious en- e- energy and, um, inspiration that they can't really, like, put their finger on it. So I was just, you know, wondering kind of, like, is that a... 23:41 Do you guys kind of- The, yeah... see that and feel that? Yeah. Mighty river, but also, you know, Levon used to talk about just the, uh, the mountains themselves, you know, which are tiny mountains, but- Mm-hmm... 23:50 you know, for him it reminded him of the Ozarks, um, in, you know, from, it's Missouri and, uh, Arkansas. Arkansas. Yeah. Yeah. 24:00 And, um, and you know, that, when, when he, when he arrived there, he felt at home, but it was the first place where, that he had ever been where as an artist he was treated with respect by the locals. Hmm. 24:13 And even back in the '60s, that was already true, that artists were given- Respect in Woodstock, even by like, you know, the lumberjacks and cops. 24:28 Uh, and nowhere else in the country at that time were artists, you know, especially musicians, especially rock musicians, treated with respect. 24:38 There's an es- an aesthetic appreciation for the arts that even goes to, you know, the very roots of the society. You know, it's not just effete aesthetes who are into the arts there. 24:52 You can have a deep conversation about music with anybody. You know, the gas station attendant. Right. 24:59 The, uh, the, the, the, like, the sheriff up there is a, is a [laughs], like, you know, like anybody you meet up there is, is, uh, uh, into the arts. It's just that is, that is unusual. That's... 25:15 I haven't seen that much anywhere. Yeah. You know? That it, it really is something that's, like, and they- it's been growing for, you know, a couple of hundred years. That's cool. Well, I want to... You mentioned jazz. 25:27 Uh, Peter, I wanna ask you, do you remember the m- the, the, the moment or the, the night or the day where you met Byron back in the... 25:36 You know, it, I think you were part of the jazz music scene of, of New York in the '90s. What... Take me back there. Like, do you remember that or not really? [laughs] Yes, I do. Like a forgettable thing. 25:46 And I remember the moment when I said, "Fuck this." [laughs] So the, uh, the, um, [clears throat] so I met Byron because I had a, an organ trio, jazz trio wh- when I was out, newly out of college. 26:03 Uh, we had a- So when you say organ trio in jazz, by the way, that usually means guitar, organ, and drums. Right. No bass. Like the organ player plays the bass with his left hand, so. Right. 26:13 So left hand, organ, bass, and then right hand is harmonic, guitar, drums. So no bass player. Um, and uh, we had an every Monday night gig on Mercer Street in SoHo, and, um, at a place that's no longer there. And 26:29 occasionally the organ player couldn't make it, and so it was just not a lot of organ players lying around. So I would hire a, a bass player instead to fill that slot. It was a natural thing. 26:41 And one of the drummers that I was working with at the time had rec- recommended Byron, so Byron came in just for a handful of dates over the course of that year that we were doing that, and that's where we met. 26:53 [clears throat] And I think we were both at that moment in our respective development where we were like, you know, 27:03 both looking to move away from jazz as a central part of what we were doing musically and artistically, and so we sort of made that leap together more or less. Hmm. 27:14 And the, and the moment w- for me, so I had become-- I don't know if you know who, um, Joey Calderazzo is. 27:21 Joey's a, [clears throat] Joey's a, [clears throat] an amazing pianist, uh, played forever with Michael Brecker and with Branford Marsalis, and with, you know, with Blue Note, whatever. 27:32 And he invited me to one of his recording sessions. [laughs] So I'm in the studio control room hanging out with Michael Brecker, Branford Marsalis, and myself. 27:43 And in the-- on the stage where they were recording was Joey, Jeff Tain Watts on drums, and John Patitucci on bass. So this is like, you know- The, yeah, A+ list. Yeah. Like the big thing, you know? And [laughs] 27:59 sitting there for that afternoon, I was like, "You know what, man? I am never gonna be that. Like, there's no amount of practicing I'm gonna do that's gonna..." You know what I'm saying? 28:12 Like, you know, I, I have a very crass analogy I use for that, but, uh, maybe this is not- [laughs] That was the moment where I'm like, man, you know, this is-- I'm a minor league player. You know what I mean? 28:25 Like, I'm not, I am not gonna be pitching for the Yankees. That's not gonna happen. Hmm. You know? And so I at that point felt, in a funny way, kind of relieved and, and, and like I could let that 28:38 part of, you know, what I was doing, just let it go and, and really focus more on the things that, that, you know, the waters I was more comfortable swimming in, you know? 28:49 Which is sort of a respect to the form, right, of jazz. Like, you know, there's sort of the, like you said, minor leagues, major leagues. But also, um, 29:00 is it like, okay, I'm gonna go into more of a folk rock, Americana sounds? Well, I don't, I don't- Like was it, was it intentional, or that, that just kind of evolve? Yes and no. 29:08 I mean, so like I, you know, I had always been involved in some kind of rock-oriented thing, but that's really what I grew up in. I mean, that's- Hmm... a language I could really speak. You know what I mean? Yeah. 29:18 And jazz, not that I couldn't speak it, but you know, it's like you're reading out of the guidebook. You know what I mean? So like you can do it, but it's not in the blood. You know what I mean? 29:30 Like it's not, it's not-- It's a language I, I could, I could get through, you know what I mean? Like- Yeah... 29:36 ordering a meal in Italian, but that doesn't mean I can sit down and have a sophisticated conversation, right? It's the same, same kind of thing. So- Yeah... 29:44 you know, uh, as for the Americana piece, um, when we-- Byron and I had a project together prior to Lost Leaders called Lowdowners, and, um, that was somewhat intentionally an Americana focus. You know, like we did 30:00 pick that aesthetic, you know what I mean, to, to work within it. Hmm. But- And that was before they were calling it Americana. They were still- Yeah... just calling it alt country at the time. Alt country, yeah. 30:11 That was our alt country band. Right. Okay. Lowdowners. Yeah. That's cool. It's a good requirement. We made- So were you guys, were you guys fast friends? Yeah. Or did it take a while? Yeah. No, like immediately. 30:23 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And you know, we, uh- Our conversations about music led into conversations about, you know, everything. We had both just recently gotten married, which was young for most people- Mm-hmm... 30:38 of our age, uh, in our age group. And both of our wives were rad, and, like, they, they dug each other and, like, we were just... We just fell into being friends just as much as colleagues almost immediately, you know? 30:52 Yeah. And then we decided to sort of, like, hatch a, an escape plan and get out of jazz prison together. Right. [laughs] Exactly. You know. So what, uh... 31:06 'Cause Peter, you, you've been in- involved in a b- in a band called Lava Baby. Yeah. Right? And then, you know, Byron, obviously you're part of The Lumineers, which, uh, is, is, is, is truly something. 31:17 What about Lost Leaders and working with each other, what does that give you that playing at, you know... I saw the Coors Field show, by the way, uh, Byron. Oh, yeah. It was awesome. 31:29 But, like, playing in front of 50,000 people doesn't give you, that the, you know, working with Peter does. Why have you guys kinda come back and, and keep, keep doing things together? 31:38 For one thing, you know, like, even, even in the context of the, The Lumineers, playing the 50,000-seat venues is not as exciting as playing a small room. Like, you don't have the intimacy. Like, it's not as direct. 31:51 And I don't get nervous in, with big... The, the bigger the crowd gets, the more sort of abstract it gets, and it's just like- Mm. It's, it's fun, but it's also, like, much more electrifying to play a small theater. 32:04 Um, but really the thing is, you know, with The Lumineers, I'm the bass player and background singer, and I'm not a writer in that band. Uh, I love their writing and, uh, I contribute from the point of the bass. 32:23 But even that, like, the bass lines in the studio are, are largely collaborative. You know, I'm, like, we're coming up with them together. And, uh, and so it's, um, you know, that is... It's a wonderful band. 32:37 I, I love being a part of it, and it's, it's a lot of fun, but it's not my thing. Um, and with Peter, it's our thing, and there's no replacing that. 32:50 And, um, you know, of, of all the other stuff I was doing before I joined The Lumineers, the one thing that I kept was Lost Leaders. And I can say, even, like, I did a solo album a few years back. Mm. 33:05 I don't like that nearly as much as Lost Leaders. Like, what I get out of the collaboration with Peter, I- can't be replaced, for me. So, you know, it doesn't... 33:15 It, and it has nothing to do with, like, the size of the audience. 33:19 Like, in fact, when Peter and I get to play, uh, The Falcon, you know, or one of these small venues in the Hudson Valley, I mean, that is truly electrifying. And, um, and I can't take that out of my life, you know? 33:35 I mean, unless Peter kicks me to the curb. Which he could, you know. [laughs] Peter, what does it, what does it give you? I mean, you know, sort of a similar, uh, you know, thing. 33:44 I mean, I have other things that I work on as well, but, you know, this is... I think, you know, the, the collaboration is very successful and rewarding artistically, right? So that's, you know, 33:57 why would you not be ceding that, you know what I mean? It's, um, uh, you know, we have good years and bad years from a, um, like, you know, financial standpoint or whatever, but, like, that's- We have good years? 34:09 [laughs] I'm kidding, I'm kidding. [laughs] This has been a good year until I had to give it all to the IRS. It's just been good since the beginning artistically and, and also it's evolved over the course of its time. 34:22 You know, I had somebody checking us out on Spotify, and they were like, "Wow, man, it's like, it's so different from thing to thing to thing," you know? 34:30 And people will tell me that there is a through line, that it definitely sounds like Lost Leaders, but album to album, you know, um, it, it... There's a lot of evolution, a lot of change. 34:44 You know, it doesn't, it doesn't, uh... We're not making the same record over and over. 34:48 So it's, it's always, you know, each, each, each album, each back of- batch of songs is sort of reapproached as if there's no history. You know? 34:59 And, and, uh, I think there's an inherent thing that we do that's always there, which is what gives it its shape or whatever. To have a project like that is pretty special. 35:09 The collaboration is very successful and rewarding artistically, right? So that's, you know, why would you not be ceding that, you know what I mean? It's, um, 35:21 uh, you know, we have good years and bad years from a, um, like, you know, financial standpoint or whatever, but, like, that's- We have good years? [laughs] I'm kidding, I'm kidding. 35:33 [laughs] This has been a good year until I had to give it all to the IRS. It's just been good since the beginning artistically and, and also it's evolved over the course of its time. 35:42 You know, I had somebody checking us out on Spotify, and they were like, "Wow, man, it's like, it's so different from thing to thing to thing," you know? 35:50 And people will tell me that there is a through line, that it definitely sounds like Lost Leaders, but album to album, you know, um, it, it... There's a lot of evolution, a lot of change. 36:03 You know, it doesn't, it doesn't, uh... We're not making the same record over and over. 36:08 So it's, it's always, you know, each, each, each album, each back of- batch of songs is sort of reapproached as if there's no history. You know? 36:18 And, and, uh, I think there's an inherent thing that we do that's always there, you know what I mean? Which is what gives it its shape or whatever. Well, I was just gonna say, um- So thanks for sharing. 36:30 Uh, I think it's cool that you guys have each other and have that shared experience for so long. I mean, it's been, what, 30, 35 years? 30 somewhere, yeah. Uh, it's so cool. Um- Yeah... 36:39 can you guys take me back to the night which I think I've read that you consider your first gig, which is the Midnight Ramble at Lev- Levon Helm's place. 36:49 Uh, w- what's the memory, what's, what's the moment, what's the sense that you still remember and hold on to? Is there, is there a moment of that night that, uh, you st- you still keep, keep close? 37:02 You know, for me, funnily enough, it's afterward. Look, we both had little kids at the time. How old were the girls? I mean, three, four? I don't remember. Like, they were young, and we, we stayed at a campground. 37:17 We had like little- [laughs] That's right... you know, we had like- The KOA... cabins and- Yeah, there's a KOA in Saugerties. Yeah, like- [laughs] And so we're there with our wives and, and 37:28 I don't know if I had my second kid by then or not. And if I did, he was a baby. I mean, you know- Well, it was, it was 2011, right? Oh, yeah. So then we had two, two... Yeah. No. We- I had both kids then. Yeah. 37:38 So like, you know, we were, we, it was sort of a great family thing, you know. 37:44 And so, uh, uh, like after the Ramble was over and we were back in the campsite with the, just the chaos of little kids running around and feeling 37:55 somewhat triumphant afterward, you know, that, that, that, that sticks to me the most. 38:00 But I still remember, you know, the energy of playing it and how great that was, and then getting up and singing The Weight with Levon at the end and, you know, it's pretty, pretty awesome. That's awesome. 38:10 [laughs] You know, I have to say that room, Levon's barn, is my favorite room in the world. It is... Uh, have you ever gotten to go to a show up there? No. Oh, man, it's worth, it's worth the trip. It is just, 38:24 it's a magical room, and it sounds incredible. And it's jam-packed, and there, you know, the, the balcony is like kind of right up to the front of the stage almost. It feels like, like you're surrounded. 38:36 It's- There's people who stand behind you up above. Um, there are people next to you. 38:41 Like, there's a line of people sitting on a radiator next to you here, and there's a whole bunch of seats on the other, you know, behind the, where the piano is. 38:48 And I mean, you're just surrounded by people, and the, the whole room is wood. It's like, um, it's, you know, what do they call that? It's just dowels- Right... not nails that are holding it together. 39:00 So I mean, every- it's all wood and stone. Right. And it just, uh, it's, it, it's, it's amazing. And the energy of the people and the, you know, of course, the people show up ready to rock. 39:12 Like they, they are just so open-minded and open-hearted and, I mean, there's, there's nothing like it, man. That, that, that place and getting to play that place, getting to debut our band. 39:23 And, you know, while we were recording the record in that same room, that's where we recorded the record, was in that room. Yeah. And, you know, Levon's house is connected. 39:35 Like it's, it's all one building, and he would just come wandering in sometimes, like in his bathrobe. He'd say, "Sounds good, boys. Sounds real good." 39:43 [laughs] You know, it's like, I mean, the whole experience was just so headache- heady. You know? It was almost something of mythology. I mean, thinking back on it now it's like, gee, mini, that actually happened. 39:54 Be- being able to play in his band, um, up, you know, up until l- 39:59 latter part of his life, I mean, do you, when you were doing that, did you understand the pro- you know, sort of the importance and the, the specialness- Oh... of, of that experience, you know? Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. 40:10 No, that was, uh, that was the, the most, um, the most intense and fruitful mentorship I've ever had. And in a lot of ways, he was a, he was a, like a father and a brother to me. Mm-hmm. 40:26 Um, I was a pallbearer at his funeral. Mm. 40:30 Um, like that time with him was, was precious and was formative for me as an artist, even though, you know, I was in my 30s already when I started playing with him and through my 40s. 40:42 Um, what I learned from him, I'm still grokking the breadth of. It was- Yeah... uh, it w- it was, it was enormous. Uh, and, and even, even just things about life, um, being around Levon, 41:01 you know, even for a moment you could learn a lot, you know. Even- Wow... from hearing him tell a story, 'cause his, uh, his a- his approach to life and his, his, um, just the way that he lived his philosophies, 41:15 uh, and played his heart, uh, is just, just unlike anything I've ever seen. And he really, um, helped me to, uh, 41:27 strengthen my resolve never, ever, ever to phone in one second of a performance. Mm. Not even one second, because he wouldn't. He was so, um, uh, 41:42 uh, concentrated while he was playing, and there were a few times that I caught him, his con- I caught his concentration slip, and he would instantly just get f- he didn't see that I cau- but he would, if he caught himself, his mind drifting or something, he'd get furious and he'd just start to double his resolve. 41:58 But like- Oh, wow... nobody on that stage could keep up with him that way, and I think we all started to feel that. When you're in his band- Mm... it was a juggernaut of focus. 42:08 And so I started really trying to just keep up with him, you know, that way, and he could feel it, and he started to see that. And so he would check me, and if I slipped for a second, just in my mi- nobody would hear it. 42:22 It wasn't something you could hear. You know, we're just playing along, but if, if my mind drifted, I'd hear a clunk on the cowbell, and he'd l- look at me, and he'd point, and he'd laugh his ass off. He's like, [laughs] 42:33 and he'd keep playing. I'd, I'd get pissed, you know, just like him, and I'd double down and, you know, try to follow. He was like a ball of fire on stage. And so in love with the music. 42:45 His, his arms would be covered in goosebumps, and he was sober. He was just turned on every night. And he was, you know, decades older than anyone else in his band, and he kicked all of our ass. All of us. 43:03 All right. Well, thanks for sharing that. That's amazing. Um, all right. So, um, wrap up. But one, one final question for both of you. Peter, I'm, I'm gonna start with you. So both of you talked about, 43:14 uh, the artists and the, and painters and the musicians of, of the Hudson Valley and, and, and the Northeast. One element of, of someone who makes art is curiosity. 43:26 Um, and curiosity is sort of the theme of this, of this podcast. So I wanna ask both of you, and, and Peter, I'll start with you. 43:32 Um, at this point in your life and your career as a father and, uh, as an artist, what, what are you most curious about? Oh, I mean, you know, the unknown, the future, the, the what next. 43:45 Like I said, every time, every time we get together to work on music, it's like there's no history. So every time you do it, in some way, it's like it's the first time you're doing it. And each 43:57 time you do it, s- something new happens, you know? So, so I mean, that's what I'm curious about, is like, huh, what's our, what's our next thing gonna be? Because it's not gonna be like our past, you know? Okay. 44:12 And, you know, family-wise, I mean, it's, you know, the magic of kids, right? I mean, mine are 20 and 22 now. But like, you know, just to see what their... 44:21 You know, curious to see what their [laughs] lives are gonna be and- Yeah... you know. Um, yeah, yeah. Okay. Well thank- thanks for sharing. Byron, what about, what about you? Well, uh, 44:34 you know, lately I've, I've started a... I, I got a modular synthesizer. 44:38 It's one where, you know, you have to plug all the pieces together every time, like with patch cords, and, uh, and I've just become so fascinated with that. 44:46 Like it's, it's very s- You know, it reminds me of my dad's mainframes that he used to work on in the '70s that were as big as refrigerators and, you know. 44:54 Uh, but, uh, so I'm, I'm fascinated with, with that and just like the, uh, the sort of scientific, uh, side of, of synthesis. Um, and also, I don't know, like I, I find like, um, 45:09 quantum physics and, uh, and all the stuff that's going on in that, I'm just endlessly fascinated with, uh, you know, the, the discoveries that they're making and, and the way that that ties into... 45:20 Like I, um, I practice Buddhism and, uh, and it just, it just, it's almost a one-to-one, um- Hmm... you know, conversation there. Like, like Buddhism at its heart is essentially, um, quantum theory. 45:34 And, uh, and I just love, like, I'm just so fascinated with the stuff, the discoveries that they're making in that, and also like the images that I see from the James Webb, uh, telescope. Hmm. You know. 45:46 Like, so tho- those are some of the things I'm curious about now. Okay. Well, thanks, thanks for sharing. That's so cool. Um, all right. 45:54 So Byron Isaacs and Peter Kuhl of The Lost Leaders, congrats on your score and soundtrack of the movie Run. Thank you. Can't wait to see it and can't wait to hear it. 46:04 And, uh, congrats on all the other things that you guys are doing both in, in The Lost Leaders and outside. And, um, yeah, really appreciate meeting you and, and your time. Thank you. Thank you, Jason. Good to meet you. 46:15 Nice to meet you. If we get down that way- Yeah... we'll let you know and see if we can sit in a house party. That'd be great. Oh, that's awesome.
